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lj_abuse didn't work out

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[Jan. 25th, 2007|01:49 am]
lj_abuse didn't work out
I feel most uneasy about the dismissive way in which LJ Abuse repeatedly refuses to intervene in serious situations.

I can't tell you how many times I've asked them to look into things, when random community members post threats of imminent, premeditated suicide and/or murder.

While I realize that the vast majority of these individuals are most likely bluffing...what if they're for real? What if a couple minutes truly do count?

I'm sick of the canned form letters I get expressing "sympathy" and "understanding" about my "friend in crisis"- these individuals are strangers to me, not friends, and I'm trying to get LJ, who knows their IPs, to attempt to prevent crime and tragedy.

I realize they can't legally do anything direct- but they have these people's IPs and, often, a hometown and/or school name posted in the individuals' profiles- could they not even try those leads?

[User Picture]From: 7rin
2007-01-25 09:09 am (UTC)
How do you know they don't do something?
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[User Picture]From: smashingstars
2007-01-25 10:48 am (UTC)
When it comes to suicide notes I think LJ sometimes does alert authorities, but I couldn't tell you how or when. It's just something I've heard.

LJ Abuse seems really skittish about situations that involve private info. Recently a comm I go to had someone post a person's name, phone number, and address, and directions on how to harass them. Because that person wasn't an LJ user, and because that person didn't complain, LJ Abuse said they didn't care because of "security issues" and "private information".
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[User Picture]From: lovewithnoface
2007-02-09 11:44 pm (UTC)
That had nothing to do with private info.

In terms of everything else awful that people do that you want the abuse team to stop? Well, the problem is is that there's the thing called free speech. And it's wonderful and awful at the same time. And the abuse team is severely limited in what they can do.

There's a journal called found images. And people post pictures, photographs that they find in the journal. It's a beautiful scapbook. There are probably people who have found lost pictures that way. Who have found parts of their life that way. There are probably people who have had parts of their life that they didn't want anyone to know about exposed that way. When I looked there, the most recent posting were photographers taken of a dead man who shot himself in the face and photographs of the reconstructed face for the funeral. Abuse can't do anything about that unless the person who took the photographs (long dead) or the person in the photographs (Dead) or his family complain. Which is true about every photo on LJ, it's true about every photo in the community. The community wouldn't exist otherwise. So I pointed out to the person who posted the photographs that if the family of the man came accross those photos they might be upset and he took them down.

I don't know exactly what their letter to you said, but I'm guessing that it didn't say that they didn't care, but that they couldn't do anything. Other than certain things, if something is content related, no matter how awful it may seem to you, and no matter how many people would agree, Abuse generally has to get a complaint for the injured party in order to do something. Bystanders can't report.

That's the only way that people can post pictures on their journals. If you post a picture of you and your friend, did you ask your friend if you could post the picture? For most people, the answer is no, but unless that person complains, you can post pictures.
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[User Picture]From: smashingstars
2007-02-10 06:52 am (UTC)
That had nothing to do with private info.

Their form email said it did. You know otherwise?

I don't know exactly what their letter to you said

Then why are you acting like you do?

In terms of everything else awful that people do that you want the abuse team to stop?

I haven't said a goddamned thing about wanting Abuse to stop "awful" stuff from happening, or to keep people from saying what they want. However, I think from a reputation standpoint, as well as for legal and business reasons, LJ might want to prohibit people from using LJ to promote illegal activity. In fact, that's one of their so-called rules. And this particular flavor of harassment was, indeed, illegal. I checked on it before sending them an email, because I was pretty sure they wouldn't care otherwise. However, LJ Abuse still insisted that the post was none of their concern, and it was not deleted. (Yes, it's still there, and I checked -- you can find it easily via Google.)

Further, if you think harassing people and encouraging others to engage in illegal activity to harass someone else is "free speech" then you're an idiot who hasn't even read the Wikipedia entry on "free speech", let alone actually thought about what "free speech" really means.

That's the only way that people can post pictures on their journals. If you post a picture of you and your friend, did you ask your friend if you could post the picture? For most people, the answer is no, but unless that person complains, you can post pictures.

Good lord. You're way off in la-la land here, lady. Nothing I said in my post has anything to do with your strange 3-paragraph-long rant about photos.
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[User Picture]From: lovewithnoface
2007-02-11 02:13 pm (UTC)
"I haven't said a goddamned thing about wanting Abuse to stop "awful" stuff from happening, or to keep people from saying what they want."

Um, yes, you did. You wanted the Abuse team to intervene in a situation where it wasn't your personal information. You wanted the Abuse team to be involved on the grounds of what was happening, not becuase something happened to you. Not that there's nothing wrong with that. The generalization I made could refer to anything from a situation where there's a TOS violation that someone catches or someone who wants LJ to censor a controversial journal.

What you said about a reputation and legal standpoint other people apply when they say LJ should get rid of communities for anorexics or religious fanatics. Which is why I went on that three paragraph rant about photos. Most people have loaded photos or at least use avatars and its therefore not a specific controversial topic. It was a way of making my point (that LJ is severely limited in what it can do) that didn't bring up anything controversial.

I don't know the specifics of the case. Link me. Quote the form letter. It's hard to comment on the specifics otherwise. And btw, you're right, I haven't read the Wikipedia entry on "free speech". Do I need to? If I arrive at the entry at a time when it's been vandalized and replaced with one line does it still count? If I have a real education, and read real books and turn to the OED and the Encyclopedia Britannica instead, do I qualify in your eyes as someone who knows what "free speech" means?

Btw, Wikipedia doesn't have an article on "free speech". "Free speech" redirects to "freedom of speech", an article that doesn't cite its references or sources. Whoo-did-doo...again, why is this important?

Also, I wasn't acting like I knew what the e-mail said--I was responding to your comment, when I said, "That had nothing to do with private info." You didn't mention anything having to do with privacy in your comment, except possibly the user's privacy, the user who's information was posted and that doesn't make any sense. If you link to the entry and copy the response, I can give you an opinion about that. If the entry was FO however, that may be what they were referring to and why they didn't do anything.
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[User Picture]From: cdaae
2007-01-25 03:56 pm (UTC)
What exactly do you expect them to do?

How do you know they haven't done anything?

An IP address rarely gives enough information to identify a person. I also don't think it's fair to expect them to judge whether a person is seriously at risk of suicide. If the school name is posted in the profile, why is it LJ Abuse's responsibility to contact the school rather than the responsibility of the person's friends?

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[User Picture]From: lovewithnoface
2007-02-09 11:39 pm (UTC)
IP addresses really don't help, But, LJ Abuse, if they know or can find your personal information and if there is imminent danger will do something. And this extends beyond suicide. If you are posting a phone post and people can hear something happen...

You'll notice that on profiles, members of the support and previous members, and sometimes just concerned citizens that they have a box with info recommending you make a private post with your personal information--full name, address, etc, because the abuse team can find it if something happens to you. I don't fully remember what they recommend, I think it's backdating it so its the first post in the journal or forwarding dating it so that its the most recent, and titling it properly...there are instructions, but I know it's saved lives before.

Also, the people on the Abuse team can't alert the authorities for every post in certain journals or communities. Some people make posts like that three times a day. It's their way of holding on or letting off steam.

And the abuse team gets a lot of cases a day, enough that they don't have time to write something individually for each person, just tailor it to each person. You want the Abuse team to do something, then you should be pleased that you aren't getting individually written letters, that they are sending canned letters to you and actually working on helping people and fixing problems.
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[User Picture]From: davidkevin
2007-02-21 07:32 pm (UTC)

It's my personal observation that the self-titled "Abuse Team" doesn't care if possibly suicidal users live or die.

It's also my opinion that those who have carefully posted their private contact information with the idea the Abuse Team will get them help if an emergency is indicated will be very unpleasantly surprised.

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[User Picture]From: sykospark
2007-05-31 08:46 pm (UTC)
I know from professional experience that third party sites, such as livejournal, Myspace, Facebook, etc, is that THEY ARE NOT THE ONES THAT CAN TAKE THE ACTION.


1. Livejournal can maybe pin down that your friend lives in Portland. If they call Portland PD, they police will be like 'what is their name, address, phone number, etc?'. Livejournal DOES NOT have that information, as a free site, they only collect basic information.

2. The police are most likely NOT willing to then request data such as IP logs from LJ, and then send a subpoena to the ISP, over some suicidal teenager.

3. Without going into detail, trust me when I say that I am an expert in this area (online community, law enforcement program, etc). YOU, as the user that knows most about the other user, SHOULD BE THE ONE TO GO TO THE POLICE OR GET YOUR FRIEND HELP. The third party company such as livejournal is just a third party company.

If your friend threatened suicide over the phone, you wouldn't go calling the phone company, telling them to help your friend.

Even though companies such as livejournal have the IP address = that is it. They would need to send a subpoena (which they wouldn't be able to acquire without a lot of time and money) to the ISP to even find out who that IP address belongs to.
What you are asking is not feasible, and puts onus on the incorrect party.
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From: (Anonymous)
2007-08-22 12:25 am (UTC)

ah just let them

ah just let the sad emo's off themselves, the worlds population is way to high anyway
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